Full Version: it is about our birthright in Messiah
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Shalom guys!

Okay, I realize it's been, like, forever, since I was online typing. That would be true for many things I should be typing and have lost track of for this season.

Anyway, to add to the discussion at hand, the largest misconstrued aspect to this "movement" is the Jewish aspect of it all. What I mean is this: We are not trying to get to know our Jewish roots, but our birthright in Messiah as a nation of priests and kings. As we cross over into His kingdom, we leave behind our Gentile, Pagan, Easter Religions, Agnostic Idealogies, and, even our Jewishness. We cannot ask the church to replace a lie of who they have been taught that they are as the Body and replace that lie with another lie.

Our roots go much deeper and, thank YHVH, much healthier than Jewish or Judaism. We must crossover to become the household of faith in Messiah as the whole nation (one new man in Messiah) Isreal. We share in the commonwealth, by the way, and have not replaced anyone or anything. YHVH is huge, I think He can handle a fewmore branches that He grafts in where He chooses.

Back to the subject. The religion of Judaism is riddled with both richness and traditions that are pitfalls that take our attention away from Yeshua. Think of the church's affinity to focus on the warfare of intercession instead of the One whom we are to be interceding. Christianity, in general, provides many outlets for the average person's attention that makes it easy or comfortable. More often then not, those very avenues of acceptance are the avenues that lead our notion to seek sensationalism or a sense of belonging away from worship or Messiah. These are not new concepts, we have inherited them from our fathers. The Jewish (which is a word that was only used since the Middle ages and is a derivative of the word Yehuda or Judah) religion, or Judaism, is just that, a religion, not a relationship. It has replaced relationship with traditions and man made rules and doctrines.

Whereas, the correlation of faith comes into play with a relationship with the Creator. The true Israelite is only that if the dots are connected in regard to Torah and now, through Messiah. To not have the proper context of an origination point, Torha, we have a miscallibrated compas and are searching or worshipping in the wrong direction or wrong God.

The Jewishness of our faith in Christianity has value, but we are instruced to test the spirit that is around us so that we will know of Whom or whom it is from. I am wonderfully glad to know that people are led out of the doldrums of Christianity into a righteous relationship with YHVH through Yeshua. However, it is regretful situation when a person leaves one dead work for another.

The richness of Judaism is exceptional. Yet, the bling should not defer our attention to the Originator of it all. He is calling us back to the pure Word of Truth. Our beginning point is Messiah of the tribe of Judah, as Judean, not necessarily a Jew.

Type at you soon!

So glad to see you weigh in! I'm looking forward to the views you can bring to these discussions, as you are coming from the messianic jewish position, and have a little different perspective than we do.

Just to start with this one point....are you saying that we need different terminology that avoids the word "Jewish"? Possibly using Hebrew or Hebraic as descriptors?

Also, could you elaborate a bit on how a christian should approach and appropriate the Torah... a bit of a definition for the unfamiliar would be good as well.
Well, yes and yes. We not only need to have new terminology, but a new mindset. While we can see that the renewed covenant has been saved and handed down to us via a Greek stylus, we must not lose sight of the origination point. If we, indeed, believe that Yeshua was Judean and Torah observant, then we He must have spoken from a Torah/Hebraic mindset. The same is true of Paul, even though he was from Tarsis, he did study under Gamliel and was very clear on knowing Torah and the Traditionally taught renditions of Mishnah or Talmud of his day and prior.

However, Paul's epistles have been taken out of context. Remeber, they are letters of rebuke for which we do not have the letters he received from these communities or for the shortcomings that he was admonishing or encouraging them. If we look at Paul's writings from a stand point of defending Torah and undermining the traditional ideologies that had been prevailing in Judaism (Phariseeism/Rabbinical Thinking) then we have a much clearer picture of the renewed Covenant writings.

Many of the passages that believers take aim with (food issues, Shabbat) are either not original to the cannon or just plain misinterpreted or misunderstood. Even Paul writes in Romans that the Law (Torah) is to show us where we fall short/sin. If we remove that standard, then we are lawless.

Back to the subject, the aspect of being Jewish has become an idol for those leaving the Church and finding a Messianic station. This lifestyle is just another religion. The "Jews" have kept Torah for us, but they have also added their two cents or two dollars worth of fence laws and traditions and yokes. However, the Church as done the same by taking away from Torah/Scripture and inserting their own importance slants and prejeduces.

Simply put, to be Jewish is only one twelveth of the equation. It is very clear in Revelation that the other tribes, with exception of Dan, are well accounted for and used by YHVH. I am not saying that we should resolve to root out what Asher acts like or to be enamoured with the blessings of one tribe over another. (Clearly Judah and Joseph have that covered anyway!) We should strive to be like Messiah. To love Him means that we will keep His commandments. What commandments, the very Words that were in the beginning and became flesh as Him that dwelt among us. His Torah is the covenant that built upon the others and was restored, renewed and build upon for David and Yeshua. No, we cannot keep all the commands. There are the ceremonial laws and so forth. But we can keep a vast amount that show us how to walk in the sanctification that Yeshau purchased to inhabit.

Yeshua brings us into sanctification, it is up to us to remain there. Torah is the standard by which we must reside within the cloud. Through Messiah, we are able to do this. He sent us the Helper that was prophesied about in Ezekiel 36 and Jer. 31. His Ruach is writing Torah on the walls of our hearts so that we will be turned back to our fathers. Those fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the people that YHVH made the Covenant with anyway. He even reminds us in Torah that it is not for our sake (or theirs at that time) but for their father's, Abraham's sake that He kept Covenant and loved them.

A believer's approach should be what the children of Israel had to do. Trust, then keep what has been revealed to them. For the children of Israel, as they crossed the Red Sea, the first and only thing that was asked of them was to keep Shabbat. This was called the sign of the covenant in Exodus. Where ever we are in the journey, we must endeavor to keep the part of the Covenant that He reveals to us. From there, as we obey, He will allow more to be revealed and understood so that we will be accountable for that, as well.

We want to believe that YHVH is an elohim that just loves, unconditionally. Torah teaches us differently. He meets us where we are, then raises us up to the place of delverance and redemption. Then, He informs us and reminds us to be a holy people, set apart for Himself. He reminds us through the threads of Scripture that IF we keep the commands of YHVH, THEN we will walk in blessings. This must be true, otherwise why do we give any credence to the Major Prophets' writings?

Torah should be embraced as both the marriage contract (covenant is a much better word) and a user's manual. It was given with a Hebrew, not Greek, mindset and mandate. We should look at all of scripture and our thoughts and lifestyles from a Hebraic perspective. Simply meaning, what does Torah say about it; moreover, not "What Would Jesus Do", but "What Did Yeshua Do?"

OK...back to the question of terminology....

You agree Jesus is Judean....in fact, wasn't all of Israel Judaen in the time of Yeshua?.....so why not use the term "Jewish" roots? Especially since there seem to be some radical fringe teachings that have become attached to the term "Hebraic Roots"?

So if neither of the two terms is truly correct and representative, what do we call this exploration? Roots of the faith seems too broad......Semitic studies brings in the whole Ishmaelites issue.....

Now to anyone who is thinking this is picky....words do mean something, and names especially mean something. Whole theologies can be built by researching the nuances and meanings of names in biblical stories. So I think it's important to really be clear in what we name things and the definitions we ascribe to them.
This whole thing is a very thorny issue. So many things are tarnished because of some common usage--some might call it high-jacking!--of a language. Christmas carols have been thrown out of common use because of this sort of high-jacking. "Don we now our gay apparel." Many other examples, but you get my point.

That's kind of why we chose the title "Jewish Roots". Truly, Jesus, being descended of David makes him out to be of the tribe of Judah, yes. There are arguments going on right now that it's Jesus the Nazarene, therefore we've got to have Nazarenism. Or Jesus being born in Bethlehem, we should be Bethlehemite Christians. IT'S NUTS OUT THERE!!!

Similarly "Hebraic Roots" has become associated with one particular bunch of folks who've developed their own approach to all of this. So we can't really use that phrase without implying endorsement of their views. I honestly do not know their views, but have been warned about them by people whom I trust.

PLEASE HEAR THIS CAREFULLY: We are not, repeat NOT suggesting that all of Christendom become Jewish in practice or theology. I know that Ben knows that this is where we stand. We are NOT suggesting that all should suddenly rush out and join Messianic congregations or become somehow affiliated with Jewish congregations. NOT GOING THERE.

Ben mentioned "Hebraic mindset". Oh, amen to that. Somewhere, we have a wonderful little teaching about some of what that means. I'll try to dig it out and share it, but to give a hint:

"Fruit in our lives" defined through HEBREW vs GREEK MINDSETS

Love, acceptance, forgiveness VS Mutual tolerance

Transparency encouraged VS Transparency discouraged

Active participation VS Passivity and lethargy

"How you serve" vital VS "What you know" vital

Each believer trained to serve VS Trained professionals utilized

Produces mature believers VS Produces spectators

These are not my work, but I subscribe to them wholeheartedly. There are lots more. I'll find them and find a way to make the formatted page available to you.

I want us to be careful not to pick too many nits. Jesus/Yeshua are used interchangeably here. Jesus was a Hebrew. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a Judean. Jesus was a Galilean. He was from Nazareth, thus a Nazarene. All true, yes? His studies and teaching about life from Torah would have been expected of such a talented rabbi/teacher as He was seen to be by even the hoity-toity-est of the elite Pharisees. But with such authority. Yeah, well, He WROTE it after all...

I expect that Yeshua was probably a model of Torah observance. As Sha'ul/Paul (of the tribe of Benjamin, yes??) said, "I am a Jew among Jews." He knew and kept the rules, especially the "BIG ONES". Smile Paul was terribly tangled up in the whole mess that Ben talked about earlier, but through Messiah, was set free! Reading his epistles show that pretty clearly. Heck, he was the apostle to the Gentiles. Normally, a "Jew among Jews" would not have been very keen on talking to, dealing with, or sharing fellowship with the Gentiles. They are unclean, their homes are unclean, they eat things that were forbidden. YOY such a list. But there he was in their midst without pause.

There's a lot more to the discussion. Big Grin
I suppose that while fringe movements do have associations and connotations to them, we might be wrong to throw the baby out with the bath water. The closer to the root of the matter should get us closer to both the truth and proper acknowlegment of what that truth was called or labeled.

First things first, however. While the Judean portion of modern day Israel was the main theme of peoples, it does not meant to infur only Jewish people lived there. The opposite point of view is that Yeshua was from the Galilee, where the northern tribes had lived. He was indeed out of his native land living north of Judah. We see in Luke 2:36 that Anna was from the tribe of Asher. In John 1, Yeshua refers to Nathanael as an Israelite, not a Judean or a Jew. We know that Yeshua tells the twelve that they will one day judge the 12 tribes of Israel. We, obviously, know that the Levites were around. If we go back to their blessing (or curse if you will) in Genisis, Yakov tells both Levi adn Simeon that: (49:7) "Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel." I reason that Simeon was scattered, still is, within the tribe of Judah, callng themselves "Jews" even as the modern day tribe of Levi does.

So we can see that at this point in history, Messiah's place in the timeline, the tribes were not lost, yet. Even in Mat. 4, Yeshua settles in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. So the region had not lost its namesake even after Israel's northern Kingdom deportation.

The word Hebrew comes from the "Hebrew" word Ibray which was what and who Abraham was and from. They were from "across" the great river Eurphrates. When Abram crossed over, he was already known to be an Ibray, he was then completed in name by crossing over the Eurphrates, again. Yet, they already existed in the Persian region through the bloodline of Shem (Semetic) There is historical account of this bloodline that had ties to the children of Israel when they were annexed by the Persians and the Medes. In fact, this group of people held the Roman army at bay so that the Roman Empire never truly conquered that land. During this time, as well, some of these Semetic peoples that had Judah intermixed within them went north to the Northern Asia (Russian and into Eastern Europe) regions. They went through the "Caucus" Mountains. They became Caucasians.....interesting fact.

Less we digress. Hebrew or Hebraic is not truly root bound, as the original was Ibray. Gen. 14. We, likewise, cross over from our ancestory, our Babylons or Persia's and our Egypts, to come into the Right walking of Messiah and Torah. As such, we may start out as aliens, or sojourners, but if we continue to walk in Covenant, we come to be know as Israel. This is evident in Torah as YHVH tells us how to treat the alien and stranger, furthermore, the Mixed Multitude that came out of Egypt with the children of Israel did not remain mixed breeds or races, but were intergrated into the tribal system that had already been established. It is clearly a personal choice to be part of Israel or Hebrew, after YHVH calls us into or back to our roots. (By the way, this the definition of grace, but that is another subject.)

The idea of Hebraic Roots seems right. Abram was not first Israel or an Israelite, he was the father of Israel (grandfather to be more specific). He was first a Hebrew. Our roots must start somewhere, why not the beginning?

Moreover, we call ourselves Americans, yet we have savage monsters that rape, pillage, steal, lie, commit every sin under heaven and are from America and are Americans. Why should we allow a few bad apples be allowed to blemish the boundary markers of our faith? Yes, Hebraic Roots seems to fit. It gets people's attention. They don't know what to do with it. The can't just immediately say we are placing them under the law. That type of law comes from the Jewish faith, that in all honesty has reflections of Hebraic leanings but is a religion all to itself. Hebraic Roots takes us to an antiquity of our ancestory and our heretage that we are trying to learn about. After all, YHVH tells the children of Israel and us in Torah that He does not keep His Covenant with us because of us or what we have done. No, He keeps it because of the Covenant made with Abraham, the Hebrew.