Prophetic Song / Spontaneous Worship, etc.
07-14-2006, 03:29 AM
Hi all,
Our church is very new, out of all denominational backgrounds. . . we (especially me) are getting more into prophetic song and such.
What do y'all believe as far as that goes, what have you read, how and what have you learned?
What's prophetic song etc sound like? ;-)
Oh, and while I'm on that subject, does anyone here play the shofar--especially during worship or as a call to worship? (or is that a whole other topic?) ;-)
My understanding of prophetic song / worship is it's between songs. . . staying on a few chords. . . singing whatever comes out from God. . . . (very basic description here). . .whether in tongues or words. . .can be to the same tune as the last song, doesn't have to be. Isn't necessarily "prophecying things to come" but telling of God's goodness and such, calling His people to deeper worship etc. . . . am I on the right track?
Helena, I'd love to get to know you better--do you have your testimony anywhere on the forum?
blessings!
Moe.
Our church is very new, out of all denominational backgrounds. . . we (especially me) are getting more into prophetic song and such.
What do y'all believe as far as that goes, what have you read, how and what have you learned?
What's prophetic song etc sound like? ;-)
Oh, and while I'm on that subject, does anyone here play the shofar--especially during worship or as a call to worship? (or is that a whole other topic?) ;-)
My understanding of prophetic song / worship is it's between songs. . . staying on a few chords. . . singing whatever comes out from God. . . . (very basic description here). . .whether in tongues or words. . .can be to the same tune as the last song, doesn't have to be. Isn't necessarily "prophecying things to come" but telling of God's goodness and such, calling His people to deeper worship etc. . . . am I on the right track?
Helena, I'd love to get to know you better--do you have your testimony anywhere on the forum?
blessings!
Moe.
Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.
Psalm 63:7
07-14-2006, 11:43 AM
Moe Wrote:My understanding of prophetic song / worship is it's between songs. . . staying on a few chords. . . singing whatever comes out from God. . . . (very basic description here). . .whether in tongues or words. . .can be to the same tune as the last song, doesn't have to be. Isn't necessarily "prophecying things to come" but telling of God's goodness and such, calling His people to deeper worship etc. . . . am I on the right track?
I'd say I'd agree with that, and expand it to include songs which are songs of the church sung TO the Lord (song of the Bride) and actual prophetic words to the church (song of the Bridegroom), which don't necessarily have to flow out of something else, but can be stand-alone songs inserted anywhere in the appropriate moment. But I suppose a distinction should be made between what is really prophetic song and what is "singing in the Spirit", which IMO cannot always be categorized as prophetic song.
It is tempting to make a definition of prophetic song as something that is always spontaneous, always new-never-before-heard, and recognizable from our normal songs, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think sometimes prophetic song can be a pre-written, even known song that is the exact right thing to sing in that moment because it is exactly what the Spirit is saying.
as to my testimony....
I don't have it chronicled on this site, but your question gives me an
. I'm wondering if it would be good to have a place here where we could write our testimonies. Would that be of interest to y'all? Any ideas on how you might like to see that work? Please weigh in on <URL url="http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=566">this topic.
In a nutshell, though, my testimony is much like others. I didn't like my life, didn't want responsibility for it anymore, and said to God, "I can't do this anymore, if you want my life, You can have it." And He took me up on my offer.
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07-14-2006, 08:31 PM
Trying again. First round went off into cyberdeath. 
Hi Moe!
First on the shofar. I play (low brass player in high school and in college) the shofar and own several of them. I usually play what is considered to be the standard shofar call for Feast of Trumpets and/or Tabernacles. There are others that are coming into use, but I honestly don't know much about them. More about that on a different thread.
hofar:
Second, on prophetic worship. This is one of several terms that has come into common vocabulary in the last 15 years or so, but it's also one of those terms that does not have a common, cohesive definition. Some folks use it for those spontaneous expressions to or about God that happen between songs in a worship or praise set. One other phrase that has been used to label that expression is "singing in the spirit," which of course was probably not politically correct for our baptistic, non-charismatic brothers and sisters (we need a smilie with its tongue in its cheek!!) So another phrase is born or appropriated, right or wrong. Others call it "free worship," and others still call it "spontaneous praise." (Or worship, depending on the definitions that folks hold for those two terms, worship and praise.) Some refer to it as a "selah time". I really have no quibbles with any of the phrases, just sometimes hard to tell what folks are asking.
Some folks see "prophetic worship" as something larger than just what H&D call "singing in the spirit." Helena alluded to that in her response. I guess I'm in that group. Guys seem to be really into putting labels on things, classifying them in ways that women don't. Sometimes it causes the ladies to roll their eyes, y'know? Women do the same thing with colors, and guys roll their eyes.
:doh:
First, worship (as I personally understand and pursue it) is, in and of itself, "prophetic". It strives to agree with what God is saying about Himself in and through the Word. Forthtelling. That's a vital point. Most of the rest of what I have to say hinges on that point.
For me, "prophetic" in this case is a style descriptor, not just the bit of singing over chords between or instead of choruses and songs. "Extravagant" is a descriptor that we (D&H) use when talking about worship style, too. You could include "liturgical" as a style, too. And of course, the inevitable "other" category where one could find evangelistic and some baptistic styles. Within those broad categories you could subdivide into "throne-focused" worship where the songs and the intention is to or toward the throne (Lord, YOU are...) and other stuff that is not throne-focused. In that other category, you'll find worship in evangelistic services that most often is educational, much as were hymns in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They teach us about Who He is, what He's like, and that we need salvation. Those are not bad things, but most--I'm careful to not say all--evangelistic music in their worship services avoid talking TO Him. Instead of encouraging that communication and communion, it's taught by music that we should really avoid it and just talk to ourselves and tell ourselves what a wonderful God He is. Not a bad thing, but how much better to educate believers on how they can actually enter into conversation with Him, love on Him, and expect Him to respond to us in some fashion? There is what we used to call the Vineyard model where most of the music is in first person, is often rather casual about language and sometimes just flat inaccurate about our relationships with Him. Some of the Vineyard stuff is very "I" centered. More talking about what I will or won't do for or toward God, than actually just exalting Him. There's a LOT of it in contemporary music as well, especially the stuff that has crept into the church as music for our services. Lots of puff and fluff. Lots of "I".
Off the soapbox for now and back to prophetic worship, both in the way you use the phrase and in the way we would use it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with singing in the spirit. I LOVE it! This is often the only time when folks are encouraged to love on the Lord and to sing their own words of adoration and appreciation, or to sing in tongues in charismatic circles. These are all good things. My one concern is that lots of gatherings don't stay there long enough for it to really develop. A few seconds and the energy fizzles, the songs droop, and on we go to whatever's next. Again, not everyone is guilty of this, but lots and lots of times we've seen it when we knew it should have pressed on. What might have happened had we pressed in? Probably our loss, sadly.
One teacher of ours used the analogy of a steam engine. Most congregations seemed to view singing in the spirit as the steam engine. The energy stopped and so did the train! His point was no, that was backward. WE're the engine and singing in the spirit is the steam!!! If we will rehearse this as a congregation, and if we'll press in, that singing in the spirit will cause the engine to move more than a couple of inches in pursuit of spiritual things. Father has a destination for us further down the tracks; we just need to fuel the engine and keep it chugging!
At our church's worship teams retreat a few weeks ago, we had a wonderful time in morning worship (Friday, maybe Saturday morning, but definitely not Sunday morning). There was an extended time of singing in the spirit (SITS) and His presence was breathtaking. How did that happen?? It was not merely the extended time of SITS. There had been a number of songs, prayer, scripture, and an extended prophetic song by our retreat master prior to all of us joining in and just singing our songs to him. All told it was maybe 45 minutes of intense worship by folks who had come prepared to worship. No "spiritual warm-up", no throw-away songs, but straight into His presence. At the end of that experience, the retreat master spoke pretty bluntly to the group of adults in the room, most of whom are or were married, a couple of 20-somethings that are about to be married. [Dean's paraphrase:] "Are you aware of what happened here this morning? That deeply satisfying presence of our Lord? You know that doesn't just happen, right? And you probably noticed that it wasn't a 'quickie'. We took our time and worked at being in His presence, honoring Him and expressing our love to Him, exalting Him. He responds when we enter in the right way!" The bluntness caught some of the folks by surprise, but it got their attention, and it impacted them. Most of them had experienced such depth at various points in their walks, but not for a while. It renewed a holy hunger for deeper encounters with our loving God!
I hope that this ramble recaptured the important parts of what I had written and lost, and I hope that I've offered something that will help further the dialog about prophetic worship, both as a definer and as a worship device. Did it make any sense to you, Moe? Did it speak to the things that you were hoping would be spoken to??
Hi Moe!
First on the shofar. I play (low brass player in high school and in college) the shofar and own several of them. I usually play what is considered to be the standard shofar call for Feast of Trumpets and/or Tabernacles. There are others that are coming into use, but I honestly don't know much about them. More about that on a different thread.
hofar:Second, on prophetic worship. This is one of several terms that has come into common vocabulary in the last 15 years or so, but it's also one of those terms that does not have a common, cohesive definition. Some folks use it for those spontaneous expressions to or about God that happen between songs in a worship or praise set. One other phrase that has been used to label that expression is "singing in the spirit," which of course was probably not politically correct for our baptistic, non-charismatic brothers and sisters (we need a smilie with its tongue in its cheek!!) So another phrase is born or appropriated, right or wrong. Others call it "free worship," and others still call it "spontaneous praise." (Or worship, depending on the definitions that folks hold for those two terms, worship and praise.) Some refer to it as a "selah time". I really have no quibbles with any of the phrases, just sometimes hard to tell what folks are asking.
Some folks see "prophetic worship" as something larger than just what H&D call "singing in the spirit." Helena alluded to that in her response. I guess I'm in that group. Guys seem to be really into putting labels on things, classifying them in ways that women don't. Sometimes it causes the ladies to roll their eyes, y'know? Women do the same thing with colors, and guys roll their eyes.
:doh:First, worship (as I personally understand and pursue it) is, in and of itself, "prophetic". It strives to agree with what God is saying about Himself in and through the Word. Forthtelling. That's a vital point. Most of the rest of what I have to say hinges on that point.
For me, "prophetic" in this case is a style descriptor, not just the bit of singing over chords between or instead of choruses and songs. "Extravagant" is a descriptor that we (D&H) use when talking about worship style, too. You could include "liturgical" as a style, too. And of course, the inevitable "other" category where one could find evangelistic and some baptistic styles. Within those broad categories you could subdivide into "throne-focused" worship where the songs and the intention is to or toward the throne (Lord, YOU are...) and other stuff that is not throne-focused. In that other category, you'll find worship in evangelistic services that most often is educational, much as were hymns in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They teach us about Who He is, what He's like, and that we need salvation. Those are not bad things, but most--I'm careful to not say all--evangelistic music in their worship services avoid talking TO Him. Instead of encouraging that communication and communion, it's taught by music that we should really avoid it and just talk to ourselves and tell ourselves what a wonderful God He is. Not a bad thing, but how much better to educate believers on how they can actually enter into conversation with Him, love on Him, and expect Him to respond to us in some fashion? There is what we used to call the Vineyard model where most of the music is in first person, is often rather casual about language and sometimes just flat inaccurate about our relationships with Him. Some of the Vineyard stuff is very "I" centered. More talking about what I will or won't do for or toward God, than actually just exalting Him. There's a LOT of it in contemporary music as well, especially the stuff that has crept into the church as music for our services. Lots of puff and fluff. Lots of "I".
Off the soapbox for now and back to prophetic worship, both in the way you use the phrase and in the way we would use it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with singing in the spirit. I LOVE it! This is often the only time when folks are encouraged to love on the Lord and to sing their own words of adoration and appreciation, or to sing in tongues in charismatic circles. These are all good things. My one concern is that lots of gatherings don't stay there long enough for it to really develop. A few seconds and the energy fizzles, the songs droop, and on we go to whatever's next. Again, not everyone is guilty of this, but lots and lots of times we've seen it when we knew it should have pressed on. What might have happened had we pressed in? Probably our loss, sadly.
One teacher of ours used the analogy of a steam engine. Most congregations seemed to view singing in the spirit as the steam engine. The energy stopped and so did the train! His point was no, that was backward. WE're the engine and singing in the spirit is the steam!!! If we will rehearse this as a congregation, and if we'll press in, that singing in the spirit will cause the engine to move more than a couple of inches in pursuit of spiritual things. Father has a destination for us further down the tracks; we just need to fuel the engine and keep it chugging!
At our church's worship teams retreat a few weeks ago, we had a wonderful time in morning worship (Friday, maybe Saturday morning, but definitely not Sunday morning). There was an extended time of singing in the spirit (SITS) and His presence was breathtaking. How did that happen?? It was not merely the extended time of SITS. There had been a number of songs, prayer, scripture, and an extended prophetic song by our retreat master prior to all of us joining in and just singing our songs to him. All told it was maybe 45 minutes of intense worship by folks who had come prepared to worship. No "spiritual warm-up", no throw-away songs, but straight into His presence. At the end of that experience, the retreat master spoke pretty bluntly to the group of adults in the room, most of whom are or were married, a couple of 20-somethings that are about to be married. [Dean's paraphrase:] "Are you aware of what happened here this morning? That deeply satisfying presence of our Lord? You know that doesn't just happen, right? And you probably noticed that it wasn't a 'quickie'. We took our time and worked at being in His presence, honoring Him and expressing our love to Him, exalting Him. He responds when we enter in the right way!" The bluntness caught some of the folks by surprise, but it got their attention, and it impacted them. Most of them had experienced such depth at various points in their walks, but not for a while. It renewed a holy hunger for deeper encounters with our loving God!
I hope that this ramble recaptured the important parts of what I had written and lost, and I hope that I've offered something that will help further the dialog about prophetic worship, both as a definer and as a worship device. Did it make any sense to you, Moe? Did it speak to the things that you were hoping would be spoken to??
Blessings!
Dean
DeanZF
07-15-2006, 05:41 AM
Yes, Dean, thank you. :-)
I'm just now starting out in more spontaneous worship. . . .I've taken part in it before, but never been the leader of it. . . so it's quite new territory for me. I want to make sure I'm always on the right track and "Following the River"--as Bob Sorge wrote in his book of that name. I don't want to miss anything. . . being though, a new church with people new to things of the Spirit, it can be slow going. . . but we're getting there. ;-)
Any other words you can share on this topic will be welcomed!
Do you or Helena (or anyone else here) move in the prophetic? Get words of knowledge etc??
blessings!
Moe.
I'm just now starting out in more spontaneous worship. . . .I've taken part in it before, but never been the leader of it. . . so it's quite new territory for me. I want to make sure I'm always on the right track and "Following the River"--as Bob Sorge wrote in his book of that name. I don't want to miss anything. . . being though, a new church with people new to things of the Spirit, it can be slow going. . . but we're getting there. ;-)
Any other words you can share on this topic will be welcomed!
Do you or Helena (or anyone else here) move in the prophetic? Get words of knowledge etc??
blessings!
Moe.
Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.
Psalm 63:7
07-15-2006, 12:49 PM
sonworshiper,Jul 15 2006, 05:41 AM Wrote:Yes, Dean, thank you. :-)You're always welcome! God's richest for you and your congregation as they explore new things in the spiritual realms.
snip
Do you or Helena (or anyone else here) move in the prophetic? Get words of knowledge etc??
And yes, both Helena & I have and do deliver words of wisdom, words of knowledge, and prophetic words or words from the Lord.
Blessings!
Dean
DeanZF
07-16-2006, 01:39 PM
HelenaZF,Jul 14 2006, 11:43 AM Wrote:Howdy!Moe Wrote:My understanding of prophetic song / worship is it's between songs. . . staying on a few chords. . . singing whatever comes out from God. . .I'd say I'd agree with that, and expand it to include songs which are songs of the church sung TO the Lord (song of the Bride) and actual prophetic words to the church (song of the Bridegroom), which don't necessarily have to flow out of something else, but can be stand-alone songs inserted anywhere in the appropriate moment.
This morning at church, I was thinking about you, Moe! During our communion time, the music team sang what is evidently the refrain from "Treasured Possession" and it goes like:
You are My treasured possession.
You are the work of My hand.
You are My treasured possession.
You are because I am.
This is an excellent example of a "song of the bridegroom," prophetic song at its finest, IMHO. We had sung our praises of Him and our worship to Him, and lo and behold, in the communion time, when we come forward to partake of Him, the song was Him singing over US!
Had to share. Wish I could find the whole song.
Blessings!
Dean
DeanZF
07-17-2006, 04:48 AM
Morning!
Is the song you mean by Mark Altrogge? Cuz if it is--that's not the chorus.
So then, can spontaneous or prophetic song be a chorus from an already known song?
Also--what exactly is a "new song"?? I'm having such a hard time differentiating between all these terms, it's just not funny!
Another question. . . .is this forum 100% private? Meaning can anyone find these posts on the net just by searching them out? Or would they have to join and then they're privy to everything? Remember back a few years ago Dean, when someone emailed a "vent" post of mine. . . to my pastor. It was a horrid time for me. . . .I'm kind of leary now, you know?
Other than my little apprehensions, I have to tell you, I LOVE this forum! It's been more of a blessing to me than many such technological helps. . .
I'm still waiting to see a testimony area though. hehe
blessings!
Moe.
Is the song you mean by Mark Altrogge? Cuz if it is--that's not the chorus.
So then, can spontaneous or prophetic song be a chorus from an already known song?
Also--what exactly is a "new song"?? I'm having such a hard time differentiating between all these terms, it's just not funny!
Another question. . . .is this forum 100% private? Meaning can anyone find these posts on the net just by searching them out? Or would they have to join and then they're privy to everything? Remember back a few years ago Dean, when someone emailed a "vent" post of mine. . . to my pastor. It was a horrid time for me. . . .I'm kind of leary now, you know?
Other than my little apprehensions, I have to tell you, I LOVE this forum! It's been more of a blessing to me than many such technological helps. . .
I'm still waiting to see a testimony area though. hehe
blessings!
Moe.
Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.
Psalm 63:7
07-17-2006, 09:58 AM
sonworshiper,Jul 17 2006, 04:48 AM Wrote:Is the song you mean by Mark Altrogge? Cuz if it is--that's not the chorus.Good morning back!
No, not by Mark, so far as I know. This might actually be the refrain from a song for our vacation bible school that's coming up! Not sure, but so it seems.
sonworshiper Wrote:So then, can spontaneous or prophetic song be a chorus from an already known song?Yes, IMO. Sometimes a known song can spark a new melody or one line from such a song can be really the message that Father's wanting to get across.
sonworshiper Wrote:Also--what exactly is a "new song"? I'm having such a hard time differentiating between all these terms, it's just not funny!Part of the reason that you're having trouble differentiating is that EVERYone has trouble differentiating. They all (we all?) want to have our own private definitions or interpretations. It's a hard area. The Hebrew and Greek are not always clear. And sometimes when the original languages are clear, that clarity offends someone's dogma and thus has to be modified to mollify! Heck, think about the continuing flap about being filled with the Holy Spirit, salvation, or even something as simple as SIN!
New song is sometimes used to say the same thing that we've been talking about, prophetic song, spontaneous worship, singing in the spirit. Some folks take it literally, in a sense, expecting new songs all the time. Makes congregational worship kind of tricky.
Others are kind of in the middle. For me personally, I'd probably mostly agree with the spontaneous worship definition, and that out of a practiced expression of that, that new additions to the congregation's repertoire might be birthed. When a worshiper, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit begins to sing a discernable, repeatable song that speaks to the immediate situation of the congregation, to the long-range vision of the congregation, or prophetically to the needs of the congregation, hopefully someone is writing down (scribe) or recording (smart and anointed sound techie!!) those times. Another suggestion to our congregation of 20+ years ago was that when prophetic words come to the congregation that are guiding words that need to "stay before the congregation," one way to do that is to set the words to music and sing them! I would classify that as both A new song and (just) "new song".
<QUOTE author="sonworshiper">
sonworshiper Wrote:Another question. . . .is this forum 100% private?To the best of my knowledge it is not, totally; There are "members only" forums that are readable only by members/subscribers/Friends. Sign out and try to get into those forums. You can't. you won't even see them. If you can't, the web spiders can't. More in a separate email.
sonworshiper Wrote:I have to tell you, I LOVE this forum! It's been more of a blessing to me than many such technological helps. . .I'm so glad. That's exactly the desired effect. Not to promote our own ideology or our own definitions, but to try and explore the incredible variety of insights available to the Body when that Body cooperates and shares openly and honestly.
Blessings!
Dean
DeanZF
07-17-2006, 11:31 AM
FYI.
The forums are open for public viewing, although guests must register in order to post.
The forums that are private (not viewable by guests)are marked this way:
<IMG content="http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/291/p2563765lb5.png">![[Image: p2563765lb5.png]](http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/291/p2563765lb5.png)
<COLOR color="#B22222">MEMBERS ONLY FORUM</COLOR>
The testimony area is up for discussion....you can make your case here:
<URL url="http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=566">http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=566
There is also an open poll where you can comment on whether guests should be allowed to view the ministry discussions :
<URL url="http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=151">http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=151
The forums are open for public viewing, although guests must register in order to post.
The forums that are private (not viewable by guests)are marked this way:
<IMG content="http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/291/p2563765lb5.png">
<COLOR color="#B22222">MEMBERS ONLY FORUM</COLOR>The testimony area is up for discussion....you can make your case here:
<URL url="http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=566">http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=566
There is also an open poll where you can comment on whether guests should be allowed to view the ministry discussions :
<URL url="http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=151">http://zionfirefriends.com/index.php?showtopic=151
11-01-2006, 08:02 PM
I came here and read for a long time before I registered. Sometimes it takes a while before you know if you want to join a forum or not, and it helps to be able to read the discussions before you decide.
But then again, if people wanted more privacy, I guess you could still know quite a bit about the forum if you could just see topic titles or something like that.
But then again, if people wanted more privacy, I guess you could still know quite a bit about the forum if you could just see topic titles or something like that.
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